FiveseveN goes KB and injures! Rethinking my purchase...

[ShockedNKansas]

In anticipation of my new FsN purchase, I have been visiting local gun shops for more education as well as a temporary fix for the excitement stemming from my newly found hobby. I wasn't prepared for what I learned after visiting the largest gun range in my city.

I talked with a couple older gentlemen about the ample selection of pistols they had for sale and rent. Everybody standing around seemed to be either a retired or active LEO so their opinions were founded on a considerable amount of experience.
We discussed Kimbers and some of their issues with quality, we discussed Glocks, S&W's, Springfields in all calibers. Their recommendations were for the 9mm. I told them that seemed too boring and gradually moved the discussion to the FsN. They were all sold out in that caliber but did have a .45 on display. I discussed my fascination with the FsN and it's unique characteristics and potential. One older gentleman, who happened to be a retired LEO and carrying a minimum of 4 pistols on his person during our conversation (2 holstered, one in the shoe, and one .22 around his neck on a chain!), gave what must be the official response to enthusiastic FsN comments, "it's basically a .22 magnum".

I then made a few comments about non-standard ammunition and some of the amazing test results achieved using "hotter" ammo. They weren't impressed with comments about velocities far surpassing recommended factory performance. They issued a warning. After they shared stories on ways pistols can and have failed, they recounted a customer of theirs suffering a FsN KB last October. I asked what kind of ammo he was using and they said factory. Considering their store only carried 197, I would assume it was 197. This gun owner suffered extensive injury with multiple objects having been embedded deep within his tissue. The sad thing is, his hands were very important for his work as he was a dentist. He underwent surgery and has yet to recover full use of his hand. The store owners said they walked through the range after the victim left and were picking up pieces of plastic all over the range. They added that they had heard of several other failings with the FsN, but I did not ask them to elaborate because I was still trying to digest the story they had just shared.

At this point all the wind had left my FsN sails. The discussion moved to plastic versus non-plastic KB's. It was mentioned that OOB KB's on typical steel pistols usually result in magazine damage or a cracked frame. Plastic-framed weapons apparently offer much less protection from a KB and can be quite catastrophic. I thanked them for their advice and shared experiences and said I would be back on another day to test-fire some different platforms and calibers.

After I arrived back home I did some Googling and came upon the 2008 story that I'm sure you all are aware of where a gun owner supposedly overloaded his ammo. It was "discovered" through FNH's own testing methods, that most likely the failure came from bad ammo. Of course it would be in their best interest to come to this conclusion and the gun owner was happy since he received a new pistol. After learning about the failure in my own city with factory ammo though, I'm left wondering if there was more to that story...

Considering that the FsN is a relatively new and rare pistol when compared to others that have been in service for as much as a hundred years, I'm thinking that there is more that needs to be discovered about this design and its safety before I make it my pistol of choice. I welcome any and all arguments based on facts regarding the safety and reliability of this platform compared to other pistols on the market.

I'm really bummed out...

Thanks for listening.

[PainKillaX]

I've seen more KB'd Glocks than I have FsNs. A member recently had it happen with his HK. Somewhere, Jay has posted a number of photos of KBs by all sorts of models, including 1911's. There is/was a recall on .45 ammo by a certain manufacturer; things happen. I don't know about factory ammo being overcharged but I kinda doubt it. Either way, it doesn't worry me. I figure my FsN is just as (un)likely to go boom in my hand as my 1911 or my PK380.

It would be too bad to see you turned away from the FsN just from this. She is a fantastic pistol, easily my favorite.

[fatherfoof]

Many of us are former or current LEO's including police firearms instructors and armorers. Let me start by saying anybody who needs four guns on their person to feel safe needs therapy, so listen to such people with 10 pounds of salt. Remington last week sent out a notice of recall on a batch of ammo- they cannot be condemned for making junk. It was a very isolated event. I know of recalls on Glocks, SandWs, Rugers and Colts. I don't feel any is a bad product. We have had this discussion here a thousand times. On this forum probably a collective number approaching a half million rounds have been fired in the 5.7. It is a fine firearm, effective and safe, but to each their own. Most of us have several calibers we play with and reload, and this is quite unique. The liability is such that it would be off the market if it tended to blow up, yet it sells well, and the businesses listed above can offer remarkable deals.

[ShockedNKansas]

I am in agreement that all forms of guns can blow up. The question that I have is.. do guns with plastic frames offer less protection when they do?

It appears that FsN's have very little tendency to fire OOB, but whatever nearly blew this guy's hand off worries me more than a little bit. If I'm allowed to stereotype a bit, I would assume dentists probably do not occupy the demographic that includes serious reloaders or high-performance after market ammo purchasers. I tend to believe him when he told the range owners that he was using factory ammo.

[Buffman]

Take everything with a grain of salt. Like those who tell you the current USG is DAO, or a S&W bodyguard 380 is SAO With the internet, there's quite the access to info. I've only seen what maybe 2-3 instances of KB's with FSN at the max. Glocks, XD's, seen more. There's an NRA instrcutor that won't shoot 1911s because one blew up on.

I'd ask them for the name of the man with the supposed KB and call him yourself and ask him the real story.

BTW my UIL is an oral surgeon, and an avid shooter, and reloader.

[panzermk2wife]

By no means am I an expert on the 5.7

But by reading posts,reports and pictures in regard to this happening there is one common reason I see

Some load their rounds too hot while some admit to it there are others that are too embarrassed to admit to it.
With all the loading data and trial & errors out there I don't understand it and I don't pretend to understand it.

I am sure there are other factors that I don't understand but this is what I have seen time and time again

I can say this

If God forbid I had to protect my 3 children it would be the 5.7 that is within reach in any give directionality in our home and if I could carry outside the home it would be on my hip when we went out but unfortunately I live in Illinois.

Like I said I am NO EXPERT.....So take my post for what it's worth as a woman and a mother

[ShockedNKansas]

Many of us are former or current LEO's including police firearms instructors and armorers. Let me start by saying anybody who needs four guns on their person to feel safe needs therapy, so listen to such people with 10 pounds of salt.

I poked a little fun at him saying he must have gotten caught without a weapon in a compromising situation and suffered a little mental trauma from it. You can tell from talking to him though that he has a LOT of experience. I think that store/range has been in operation in our city for decades and he looks like he has been working there for most of that period.

But several of the "old-timers" said they had fired the FsN many times and enjoyed the way it shot. There was definitely no perceived malice towards FN's or plastic guns in general. Nobody had a negative thing to say about Glocks, that is for sure. They just had a very scary story (IMO) to share that just happened recently. They also said they have several people in their range that routinely shoot FsN's.

[jgreenberg01]

Many of us are former or current LEO's including police firearms instructors and armorers. Let me start by saying anybody who needs four guns on their person to feel safe needs therapy, so listen to such people with 10 pounds of salt.

I poked a little fun at him saying he must have gotten caught without a weapon in a compromising situation and suffered a little mental trauma from it. You can tell from talking to him though that he has a LOT of experience. I think that store/range has been in operation in our city for decades and he looks like he has been working there for most of that period.

But several of the "old-timers" said they had fired the FsN many times and enjoyed the way it shot. There was definitely no perceived malice towards FN's or plastic guns in general. Nobody had a negative thing to say about Glocks, that is for sure. They just had a very scary story (IMO) to share that just happened recently. They also said they have several people in their range that routinely shoot FsN's.

Those grains of salt, remember them. I witnessed the owner of a gun store tell customers that he was trying to sell a FsN to that it's called a "cop killer" because if "you lined up five people back-to-back, it would shoot through all of them." He was also pointing to the SS197 rounds he was selling.

Experience does not always equal knowledge, especially when they are talking about topics they only know of second (or third) hand. And just because he is carrying 4 guns (really?!?!?), does not mean he knows anything about Five-seveNs.

Here's a good analogy: I was considering buying a Volvo because I have read that they have an excellent safety record. A friend told me that his friend had never-ending service issues with his Volvo. Does that mean I should reconsider purchasing one? I know they have an excellent track record, and I also realize that no matter what the product - car, refrigerator... or gun - you can always find someone with a horror story. Just look at all the success stories here in this forum of actual, real-life FsN users. Who are the real experts?

Grains of salt, where appropriate...

[ShockedNKansas]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vceh44UK-8I

Am I sick because I laughed when I watched this? :ponder:

[firestorm248]

There isn’t a gun on the market today that doesn’t have a risk of a catastrophic failure. I have seen them in every type of military weapon I have used. I have seen rounds explode in the chamber and gas pistols melt. You cannot let the rare risk of such things determine your weapon choice.

[Cyberfly]

I have to agree with the forum members above.
Although I no longer own my FsN, it wasn't due to safety issues. It was because I couldn't find a reliable source of ammunition locally. While I owned mine (I had two), one had many thousands of rounds sent down the barrel without a single hiccup. My brother talked me out of her and she is still sending thousands of rounds down the barrel without trouble. The other only fired a few boxes before I traded her and began carrying a 9MM as a duty weapon.
If I had a reliable source of ammo locally I would pick up another FsN today for a duty weapon.
The platform is as sound as any other...if not more so.
Yes, anything that has a controlled explosion inside it has the capability of KB. It's simply part of the risk. It dosn't matter if its a .22 or a howitzer.

[s4mur41h4x0r]

As the others have said, this risk resides with any firearm. I have seen a Glock and HK both KB, but still own mine and they both work great, as long as you practice safe shooting you will be fine! :thumb:

Go with the FsN

[ShockedNKansas]

The fact that a few FsN's out there went boom isn't troubling unless you consider the fact that the FsN is kind of a fringe gun. It is hardly as popular as some of the Glocks, H&K's etc. out there being mentioned as going boom as well. Another thing that troubles me is how they KB. It appears to me that when they KB you have a greater chance of being injured than with other guns (particularly steel). I have seen several overloaded Glocks that boomed and the handler was fine.

I'm starting to fancy myself a Sig 9/40 with a 20 round cartridge. The 10mm Glock with the 15 round mag isn't looking too bad either. Can anybody scare me out of those guns?

[ShockedNKansas]

ive had about 6 so far and no ka boom for me, like they said, take it with a grain of salt. ive seen tons of guns blown up, but normally its the user and not the gun unless it starts with L and ends in ORSON.

Do you mean Lorcin? My dad has one of those P.O.S's in his collection. It's a little .380 that jams like mad. They were a gun manufacturer out of Cali from 1990-2000. They went broke I believe. Should he toss that pistol in the garbage?

[panzermk2]

Many of us are former or current LEO's including police firearms instructors and armorers. Let me start by saying anybody who needs four guns on their person to feel safe needs therapy, .

JD this is why we just love to have you around.

[DmL5]

You can tell from talking to him though that he has a LOT of experience. I think that store/range has been in operation in our city for decades and he looks like he has been working there for most of that period.

Experience, perhaps, but not necessarily knowledge. No one with any knowledge of either the .22 WMR or 5.7x28mm would claim that the performance of the two cartridges is remotely similar. The 5.7x28mm out of the Five-seveN produces nearly double the muzzle velocity of .22 WMR out of a pistol.

In anticipation of my new FsN purchase, I have been visiting local gun shops for more education

This seems to be your problem. Don't lend much credibility to anything you hear at a gun shop or range. The only well known KB with the Five-seveN involved reloaded ammunition; and even if you're skeptical of FNH USA's subsequent testing on that matter, it is still true that reloaded ammunition was involved, so it would be impossible at this point for us to know (without a doubt) what happened. Aside from that matter, the Five-seveN is a safe gun, per the first-hand experience and knowledge of any of the Five-seveN owners here on the forum. Don't worry about it.

[panzermk2]

From Kel Tecs own site,

TECHNICAL SPECIFICATIONS
Calibers: .22 Magnum (.22WMR)
Weight unloaded: 13.6oz. 385.6g
Loaded Magazine: 6oz. 170.1g
Length: 7.9" 200.7mm
Height: 5.8" 147.3mm
Width: 1.3" 33.0mm
Barrel length: 4.3" 109.2mm
Sight radius: 6.9" 175.3m
Energy (40gr): 138ft-lbs 187J [1071fps according to my calculations ]
Capacity: 30 rounds
Trigger pull: 4-6 lbs 17.8-26.7N



FiveseveN Pistol
Pro1
2,092fps-389 ft LBS

[tparty]

ShockedNKansas wrote:

One older gentleman, who happened to be a retired LEO and carrying a minimum of 4 pistols on his person during our conversation (2 holstered, one in the shoe, and one .22 around his neck on a chain!), gave what must be the official response to enthusiastic FsN comments, "it's basically a .22 magnum".

Obviously, it would appear the gentleman has a bias against the FsN. This type of bias is probably similar to how some folks like Harleys vs. Japanese Sportbikes. Having ridden both, they each have their place, but some people can't see this. Similarly, it appears these folks have a problem with the paradigm of the FsN. I've run into this here in the ATL (you can search for a recent post titled "Boneheads in Atlanta").

Because of this, several have suggested that you take their advice with a grain of salt--good advice. As with other things in life, as you get into your new hobby, you should use your judgment and experience to discern who to believe. And, as Reagan said, "trust but verify".

There are plenty of us on this forum with lots of experience. I can only speak for my self, and I'm not one to brag, but I've been shooting since I was about 6 years old (I turn 46 very shortly) and reloading for over 25 years. I've been fortunate to see a lot of different things over the years (lived in 9 states and 3 countries; 8.5 years as a military officer) and gained a little knowledge along the way (two engineering degrees, licensed in 23 states). Despite having a little bit of experience, I'm always learning something new and am very leery of anyone who tries to paint something in such black and white terms.

This forum is a wonderful resource with many folks that have tremendous amounts of book and practical knowlege. Many (self included) have spent countless hours experimenting with dozens of different pistols, loads, techniques, training, etc. I've always thought that the mind works like a parachute (it works best when open) and it appears these folks are fairly ignorant. I've heard similar arguments about Taurus pistols, Philippine 45s, etc. For what it's worth, you should take in information, fire the weapon, and draw your own conclusions. Perhaps you should consider their counsel just one data point.

[Cyberfly]

I like that.
Harleys are overrated, are hard to keep running, yet they still have that stigma. Jap bikes have the same look, can be tuned to have the same sound, are faster, get better mileage are more reliable, yet the profit goes overseas.
That's why I ride Victory. Made in the USA! :thumb:

Look, if you want reliable information on a shooting platform, go to folks who actually SHOOT that platform.
That's my advice. And lucky for you, you've decided to do that. And I think the consensus here is, "Go ahead and buy it. You won't be sorry."
However, (and here is the caveat) should you decide to begin reloading: BE CAREFUL. This round is not very forgiving. All of the recorded KB's that we know of have involved reloaded ammunition. And while Fuzzy's KB...I personally do not believe that he double charged the round. I would have shot ANY of his reloads ANY day of the week. He's simply too careful. Especially when it comes to controlled explosions in a device you hold in your butt scratcher!

[ShockedNKansas]

I appreciate all the contributions thus far as they have certainly been helpful. One thing though, people have kind of fixated on the four-gunslinging ex-cop who probably does that for the response he gets when customers come into his shop. He actually appears quite lucid and knowledgeable when you talk to him. He really had nothing negative to say about the FsN and said he liked shooting it. The 22mag comment is probably the majority opinion of most gun owners who haven't had the privilege of learning about EA's ammo. Let's be honest, 197 ammo is pretty anemic and that is what two gun ranges I have visited carry as well as the local Gander Mountain. In fact, the range I shot at last night only allows 197 to be fired.

But back to my point... while a lot of people in here have chosen to focus on the salty ex-cop, the real issue is a FsN that grenade'd in the hand of a dentist while firing factory ammo causing him to possibly never regain full use of his hand. There were 3 men behind the counter recalling the incident at the time, not just "Mr. Pistol". So my question still remains: do you guys think that it is better to be holding an all-steel pistol that goes KB or does the evidence point to no real advantage as far as sustained hand injury? The fact that they said the FsN completely exploded in the hand of the dentist bothers me. They could have been exaggerating but they went so far as to say they were picking up little pieces of plastic all over the range.

[panzermk2]

I have seen steel guns take a guys hand out. Back when 38 Super ruled IPSC KB where common because of hot loading to make major. So common that the owners of these 1911 38 supers installed steel plates between the grip panels and grip frame. This way they avoided pieces of brass, magazine and grip materiel from being blown into their hands. You can still buy these inserts.

One advantage when a steel gun goes KB it's easier to find the pieces with X-rays.

[tparty]

ShockedNKansas said:

So my question still remains: do you guys think that it is better to be holding an all-steel pistol that goes KB or does the evidence point to no real advantage as far as sustained hand injury?

This appears to be a false choice, akin to asking: what's the best car to be riding if you're in an accident. To this I would reply: avoid the accident altogether.

The reality is that firing a handgun entails risk. Why? You are ostensibly dealing with a controlled explosion that's occurring immediately above your hand(s). From an engineering standpoint, most modern firearms have significant safety factors built into their design. That said, there are many different failure modes that can effect a catastrophic situation.

Without going through a lot of boring details, the bottom line, for me at least, is to get trained, know what you're doing, and avoid a disastrous situation. It's more about the software than the hardware. That said, sometimes these can't be avoided--life is full of risks--we assume them every day. Notwithstanding the purported 'dentist incident', it doesn't appear that there is anything inherently dangerous about the FsN. Despite being revolutionary for several reasons (weight, magazine capacity, cartridge), it's based on the time-proven delayed intertia/delayed blowback design (used since WW I) and the interior of the slide is steel.

[jgreenberg01]

@ Shocked - this is almost like beating a dead horse at this point. I think you should shoot what you feel comfortable with. You've heard from experts and non-experts with regard to the FsN. Choose to believe who you want, but the bottom line is exactly what tparty (and others) said... shooting guns has some inherent risks associated with it.

You have a whole forum of experienced shooters who use/carry the FsN and have complete faith in the platform telling you that it works for us. Many of us shoot/own steel guns as well - I choose to carry the FsN over those for many reasons.

Regardless of the gun you do choose - if it's a major manufacturer, the odds of a KB are minuscule - so really - choose what you feel comfortable shooting!

[s4mur41h4x0r]

@ Shocked - this is almost like beating a dead horse at this point. I think you should shoot what you feel comfortable with. You've heard from experts and non-experts with regard to the FsN. Choose to believe who you want, but the bottom line is exactly what tparty (and others) said... shooting guns has some inherent risks associated with it.

You have a whole forum of experienced shooters who use/carry the FsN and have complete faith in the platform telling you that it works for us. Many of us shoot/own steel guns as well - I choose to carry the FsN over those for many reasons.

Regardless of the gun you do choose - if it's a major manufacturer, the odds of a KB are minuscule - so really - choose what you feel comfortable shooting!

+1

To me it seems like the OP is trying to find a reason NOT to buy the FsN, my advice, don't, you will probably regret it. I absolutely love mine and recommend it to many people.

However I just have to add that if you are taking advice from a guy who carries 4 guns on him, you may want to consider the source...

[blueorison]

"There are plenty of us on this forum with lots of experience. I can only speak for my self, and I'm not one to brag, but I've been shooting since I was about 6 years old (I turn 46 very shortly) and reloading for over 25 years. I've been fortunate to see a lot of different things over the years (lived in 9 states and 3 countries; 8.5 years as a military officer) and gained a little knowledge along the way (two engineering degrees, licensed in 23 states). Despite having a little bit of experience, I'm always learning something new and am very leery of anyone who tries to paint something in such black and white terms."

One of the few reasons why this forum is great (thanks, tparty).

We speak from OUR firsthand experience. Unlike ______, we do not rehash some "industry professional's" mode of thought.

We have, oh, a nice breed of engineers on here. :laugh:

As Greenberg initiated; you're really beating a pureed horse into liquid. If you do not want to obtain the platform, you will always look for ways to justify this. The only way to put your questions to rest, then, is to purchase one and try it for yourself. They have a very high resale value (as in, you can sell a used one for basically the same price as it is new), so you're not taking a chance. At all.

Either way, this issue has been discussed an umpteenth times before, you can google it and find many-a-thread on our forum about this.

[PainKillaX]

Unlike ______, we do not rehash some "industry professional's" mode of thought.

Oh I'm good at this game. Is it...
--FNForum.net
--Glock Talk
--AR15.com

:laugh:

[Cyberfly]

You can also Google it and find many another forum where people will bash the platform out of ignorance and claim that it is simply an expensive .22 magnum...although they are basing velocities from a .22 long rifle and comparing it to a 5.7 fired from a 4" barrel.
You have come to the right place for your information.
Look, I understand your concern.
I do.
We are trying to tell you that your concerns aren't really necessary.
1) All of the KB's that we know about have been from reloaded ammo.
2) We have not heard of said dentist.
3) Yes, we consider people who carry four weapons in plain sight to be a little 'off', however, to each their own.
4) We ALL think that if you like the platform you should buy it.
and, 5) If you do buy it and decide you don't like, you will most likely get all of your money back on a low mileage resale.

Besides, we have forum sponsors here that can probably make you a solid deal...

That's pretty much it in a nutshell. We can continue to keep saying it over and over if you like, but we aren't going to change our opinions.
Steel guns go KB as well.
Is one safer than another? I don't think so. I own both. I like both. I have big calibers, I have small calibers. I shoot .22's, .32, 380, 9MM, 10MM, .45 but my favorite is the 5.7X28MM.
Jay can cook you up some rounds that keep you grinning from ear to ear and make you feel safe and sound with whatever you may encounter.
Well...anything short of a tank. But if thats a real risk, let him know and give him time to R&D something.

[ShockedNKansas]

Either way, this issue has been discussed an umpteenth times before, you can google it and find many-a-thread on our forum about this.

The issue of the FsN being a safe gun has been discussed umpteen times? That's not a good thing... :ponder:

I know there have been many threads about the Fuzzy incident but I had new information so I wanted to get some feedback. I know it isn't fun to hear about something like this when it involves the gun you love. How do you think I felt when I heard the story? I was so pumped about the gun - it was singlehandedly bringing me into the sport/hobby of gun ownership ( I was previously apathetic about owning a gun) - but then hearing about a local injury involving the gun was like a kick in the gut. I know accidents happen but this one was local and the gun is really rare when compared to others on the market. In my mind that is either a major coincidence or there are a lot more "accidents" out there that aren't being reported. This one surely wasn't going to be unless I did it.

I'm not trying to talk myself out of the gun, I'm trying to talk myself back into it. I am/was really excited about getting into this hobby and I don't really have any interest for other types of guns. But I am trying to convince myself to get something if I don't get the 5.7. That is why I am asking about steel guns.

On another note: I went to the range last night and shot an old Glock 17 and had a lot of fun. It seems the Glock 9's have a super safety record from what I have been able to glean from Google and they have fired millions and millions of rounds.

[ShockedNKansas]

Jay can cook you up some rounds that keep you grinning from ear to ear and make you feel safe and sound with whatever you may encounter.
Well...anything short of a tank. But if thats a real risk, let him know and give him time to R&D something.

Without Jay's rounds, shooting the 5.7 would be like eating unsalted food!

[Cyberfly]

Not really.
There ARE other FN rounds out there that are fun to shoot. However, once you shoot EA you don't want to go back.

I think you may be getting the wrong impression though about the FsN.
It may not be as numerous as 'Glock' here in the states. However, Glocks have been around longer. FsN was imported here long after Glock perfected the idea of a polymer gun. But the FsN was a hit overseas, then brought here.
That's not to say that there haven't been a TON of Glocks go KB, too. Is the ratio near the same? I'd think the ratio higher for Glocks. Why? Because Glock had to do a lot of the experimenting with the polymer ratios with their plastics. But do you hear a lot of people say, "I won't own a Glock because they blow up in your hand!"?? Not really. That was a long time ago. DO Glocks blow up on you. Sure they do. ALL guns can and DO.
It's like I said in my first post in this thread. Its a risk, whethere its a .22 or a Howitzer.
But is it any more likely with a FsN or a Ruger or a S&W or a Glock or any other name?
None of those, I'd say. Perhaps Lorson, yes, but not so much the others.
What are the odds that YOUR FsN will blow up on you? I'm not an odds maker, but I would say pretty damned low.
Look, I've been shooting since I was 5 years old. I've shot all kinds of weapons. Some were total crap. I've never had one KB on me. I've put many THOUSANDS of rounds down range. I've hunted since I was 10. I'm only 44 now (feel 70) and many a critter have fallen to hot lead at my hands.
If I could could choose any one weapon to take into the afterlife and use to guard the pearly gates for St. Peter, it would probably be the FsN. Either that or the 10MM. Tough choice for me, I love them both.
But if I were there with ya, I'd slap ya on the back, tell ya to buy it or you were a pussy. And if you tried to walk out without it, I'd kick ya in the fanny and tease you all the way home! :p

[blueorison]

Either way, this issue has been discussed an umpteenth times before, you can google it and find many-a-thread on our forum about this.

The issue of the FsN being a safe gun has been discussed umpteen times? That's not a good thing... :ponder:

On another note: I went to the range last night and shot an old Glock 17 and had a lot of fun. It seems the Glock 9's have a super safety record from what I have been able to glean from Google and they have fired millions and millions of rounds.

Correction; it IS a good thing. This is because we openly discussed the incident when it first happened. It was resolved. Since then, newbies have been coming on our forum asking about the same incident over and over again, and each time the resolution was supplied to them. It hasn't been discussed umpteenth times because it NEEDED to be. It was discussed umpteenth times because newbies kept asking about the same incident over and over again when it already had been resolved by FN and the shooter.
:facepalm:

Wait, you're right, it really isn't a "good" thing.

You should buy a glock 9mm. :thumb:

[toyslr]

Personal opinion is "without pictures" its B.S. Every major weapons platform has and will have failures, even the venerable 1911. If you choose to follow peoples opinions on firearms or anything else for that matter, you might as well wrap yourself in bubble wrap and never leave the house!

[firestorm248]

-"ShockedNKansas"-"So my question still remains: do you guys think that it is better to be holding an all-steel pistol that goes KB or does the evidence point to no real advantage as far as sustained hand injury?"

This is like asking whether I would rather have a metal pipe bomb explode in my hand or a plastic pipe bomb go off in my hand. Both can be fatal or cause you to lose your hand. I honestly don’t think either is the safer. :suicide:

[ShockedNKansas]

Either way, this issue has been discussed an umpteenth times before, you can google it and find many-a-thread on our forum about this.

The issue of the FsN being a safe gun has been discussed umpteen times? That's not a good thing... :ponder:

On another note: I went to the range last night and shot an old Glock 17 and had a lot of fun. It seems the Glock 9's have a super safety record from what I have been able to glean from Google and they have fired millions and millions of rounds.

Correction; it IS a good thing. This is because we openly discussed the incident when it first happened. It was resolved. Since then, newbies have been coming on our forum asking about the same incident over and over again, and each time the resolution was supplied to them. It hasn't been discussed umpteenth times because it NEEDED to be. It was discussed umpteenth times because newbies kept asking about the same incident over and over again when it already had been resolved by FN and the shooter.
:facepalm:

Wait, you're right, it really isn't a "good" thing.

You should buy a glock 9mm. :thumb:

Correction again: it is a good thing to thoroughly discuss the 2008 incident, but not the issue of the FsN being safe in general which your original quote implied. "My issue" - which will forever be referred to as the dentist KB - is unique as nobody that I know of online knows about it.

Now I'm just arguing for the sake of arguing... lol :clap:

You should buy a glock 9mm.

Nice try at reverse psychology bro! :thumb:

[ShockedNKansas]

-"ShockedNKansas"-"So my question still remains: do you guys think that it is better to be holding an all-steel pistol that goes KB or does the evidence point to no real advantage as far as sustained hand injury?"

This is like asking whether I would rather have a metal pipe bomb explode in my hand or a plastic pipe bomb go off in my hand. Both can be fatal or cause you to lose your hand. I honestly don’t think either is the safer. :suicide:

I guess with my limited knowledge of guns, I was just wanting to know if a steel framed pistol would be more likely to contain or limit the amount of shrapnel released on a KB malfunction versus plastic. Initial thought would lead a person to believe that you are safer with steel but the pipe bomb analogy does a good job of getting the point across that with enough explosive force, steel can certainly be worse than plastic.

One poster on here has already said that the only advantage they think steel frames have over plastic is the ease in finding the pieces later with a metal detector.

[s4mur41h4x0r]

-"ShockedNKansas"-"So my question still remains: do you guys think that it is better to be holding an all-steel pistol that goes KB or does the evidence point to no real advantage as far as sustained hand injury?"

This is like asking whether I would rather have a metal pipe bomb explode in my hand or a plastic pipe bomb go off in my hand. Both can be fatal or cause you to lose your hand. I honestly don’t think either is the safer. :suicide:

I guess with my limited knowledge of guns, I was just wanting to know if a steel framed pistol would be more likely to contain or limit the amount of shrapnel released on a KB malfunction versus plastic. Initial thought would lead a person to believe that you are safer with steel but the pipe bomb analogy does a good job of getting the point across that with enough explosive force, steel can certainly be worse than plastic.

One poster on here has already said that the only advantage they think steel frames have over plastic is the ease in finding the pieces later with a metal detector.

What exactly do you mean by steel frame? Because if you mean it the way you are saying it, a sig, fnp, fn FsN, glock, HK, kel-tec, and several other all have a POLYMER frame so none of them would work for you. That limits you to items like a 1911 or FN hi-power or walter

However if you are talking about the SLIDE, then that is a whole different story, all of the guns listed above (including the FsN) have steel slides. The FsN just has a polymer cover over the STEEL slide.

My advice, quit posting on here, go to the store, take the slide off the frame and look at one. Then come back with questions. :thumb:

[panzermk2]

Let's not forget the first GEN M9's the US Military had that split the slide under recoil sending the heavy section into the face of the shooter.

Anything can fail.

[firestorm248]

Shudder….Military M9’s feel like you’re holding a brick

[ddouglas]

ShockedNKansas...I've been following this thread and I'm wondering if you aren't protesting too much to be sincere. (That's only a rhetorical question; I'm not saying you are any less than a genuine, concerned individual. It's only that you continually challenge the things you are told as fact by a significant number of (what I believe to be) knowledgeable people.) It seems to me that, rather than continually questioning the statements made here by lots of experienced folks, maybe you should pursue this a little more at your end. Find out the name of the dentist and go talk to him about his experience. Ask him if he was using factory ammo or handloads and , if factory, what type. Ask if he had received any safety training regarding closing the slide of a semi-automatic to ensure that the bolt is locked. Ask him a lot of questions to try to ferret out what the real story is. Then come back here and relate those facts to us. At that point, a real dialog can begin.

[Samuel1941]

Dear ShockedNKansas....

This thread is getting a little boring! This thread has been up for almost a week now and no one out of 3683 registered members on this board has any personal experience with an FN57 just exploding!!

Read carefully: The weapon is not going to explode unless you misuse it (as any weapon would) like hot loaded ammo or failure to close the slide properly, etc.

Your story of the exploded weapon with the anonymous dentist is like I heard from a box boy at the market who told me his 3rd cousin knew a truck driver that met a waitress at a coffee stop who said her car mechanic told her his uncle heard...well, you get the idea!! And, each time the story gets told anew, it gets better.

I am retired law enforcement (32 years) and over the years had collected several handguns. I bought the handguns to serve a purpose...carry on duty, carry off duty, more fire power, extra easy to conceal, accurate, etc.

I normally carry a Glock 26 off duty...9mm, small and easy to conceal in my fanny pack. I would carry the FN57, but it is too large for my fanny pack. But, if I were going somewhere that made me feel uncomfortable, I have the FN57 that I could carry in a belt or shoulder holster. Lots of reasons to have a handgun and many fit a specific purpose better than others.

I bought the FN57 because it is very powerful, minimal recoil, large capacity magazine, and accurate. I don't do much target shooting except a couple of times a years to keep my skills somewhat current. My weapons purpose is self defense. When I read about the "damage" an FN57 could do in a real shooting (Of course I'm referring to the Fort Hood shooting where the nut case psychiatrist Army Major killed 13 and wounded like 20 more.) without any training, I thought this would be a weapon to have in some situations. Buying a weapon is like buying shoes. You can walk/run in any of them, but each is made for a purpose...dress shoes, casual shoes, running shoes, hiking boots, work shoes, rain boots, etc. All will fit your feet and you can walk/run in them, but each has a purpose in which they excel...you may pick different shoes each day depending on what you are doing.

My point is, if the weapon will do what you want it for, buy it. It's not going to explode!!
If it doesn't exactly fit your purpose or you're still concerned about the safety of the FN57, it's time to move on and look at some other handguns........

[PainKillaX]

Dear ShockedNKansas....

This thread is getting a little boring! This thread has been up for almost a week now and no one out of 3683 registered members on this board has any personal experience with an FN57 just exploding!!

Read carefully: The weapon is not going to explode unless you misuse it (as any weapon would) like hot loaded ammo or failure to close the slide properly, etc.

Please check your facts before you passive-aggressively attack other members. One of our admins DID have his FsN explode, while he was shooting. However, it is believed to have been due to hot ammo (if I recall correctly).

I don't mean to come off as an arse but there ought not to be a spread of misinformation.

[blueorison]

Dear ShockedNKansas....

This thread is getting a little boring! This thread has been up for almost a week now and no one out of 3683 registered members on this board has any personal experience with an FN57 just exploding!!

Read carefully: The weapon is not going to explode unless you misuse it (as any weapon would) like hot loaded ammo or failure to close the slide properly, etc.

Your story of the exploded weapon with the anonymous dentist is like I heard from a box boy at the market who told me his 3rd cousin knew a truck driver that met a waitress at a coffee stop who said her car mechanic told her his uncle heard...well, you get the idea!! And, each time the story gets told anew, it gets better.

I am retired law enforcement (32 years) and over the years had collected several handguns. I bought the handguns to serve a purpose...carry on duty, carry off duty, more fire power, extra easy to conceal, accurate, etc.

I normally carry a Glock 26 off duty...9mm, small and easy to conceal in my fanny pack. I would carry the FN57, but it is too large for my fanny pack. But, if I were going somewhere that made me feel uncomfortable, I have the FN57 that I could carry in a belt or shoulder holster. Lots of reasons to have a handgun and many fit a specific purpose better than others.

I bought the FN57 because it is very powerful, minimal recoil, large capacity magazine, and accurate. I don't do much target shooting except a couple of times a years to keep my skills somewhat current. My weapons purpose is self defense. When I read about the "damage" an FN57 could do in a real shooting (Of course I'm referring to the Fort Hood shooting where the nut case psychiatrist Army Major killed 13 and wounded like 20 more.) without any training, I thought this would be a weapon to have in some situations. Buying a weapon is like buying shoes. You can walk/run in any of them, but each is made for a purpose...dress shoes, casual shoes, running shoes, hiking boots, work shoes, rain boots, etc. All will fit your feet and you can walk/run in them, but each has a purpose in which they excel...you may pick different shoes each day depending on what you are doing.

My point is, if the weapon will do what you want it for, buy it. It's not going to explode!!
If it doesn't exactly fit your purpose or you're still concerned about the safety of the FN57, it's time to move on and look at some other handguns........

Great post, Samuel! Thank you for keeping America safer for over 3 decades :thumb:

[ShockedNKansas]

Ahhhhrrggggg the forum is turning against me...

Don't worry guys. I can imagine how passionate and defensive one must be about their favorite pistol. I knew my thread might cause some unfriendly attention and hesitated before posting. I think those that have responded to my concerns have gone way beyond the call of duty and have been a lot more kind and helpful than probably many other forum memberships would. I was just as gung-ho as the most zealous FsN fan until I had this story slapped in my face. You have to understand, to a new gun owner with very little knowledge of "how rare" KBs are, a story like this seems bigger-than-life. That is why I came to you guys (and gals?) for support and more information. I am still leaning toward an FsN, I'm just immersing myself in more education about the gun until the bad taste leaves my mouth.

Some have recommended trying to contact the victim and I have thought about that. I certainly don't doubt the veracity of the story. Those that were telling it had no reason to make it up. Why would you want to scare a newb out of buying an expensive gun? Also, one of the guys behind the counter said the owner of the range has a 5.7 and they all have shot it and liked it. They also mentioned several regulars that shoot 5.7's. I don't think they thought the story would affect me like it did. I certainly wasn't fishing for information about it's safety. At that point I had never heard of a gun blowing up and wouldn't have ever imagined that a 5.7 had KB'd, much less a few months ago at the very range I was standing in.

I think I'm going to go to that range tonight and shoot some rental guns. They told me they didn't have any rental FsN's but perhaps there will be an FsN regular there that wouldn't mind me squeezing off a few rounds.

[ShockedNKansas]

Let's not forget the first GEN M9's the US Military had that split the slide under recoil sending the heavy section into the face of the shooter.

Anything can fail.

Well I won't be shooting any 1st gen M9's! I want the latest and greatest and safest for the shooter while deadliest for the bad guy.

[ShockedNKansas]

-"ShockedNKansas"-"So my question still remains: do you guys think that it is better to be holding an all-steel pistol that goes KB or does the evidence point to no real advantage as far as sustained hand injury?"

This is like asking whether I would rather have a metal pipe bomb explode in my hand or a plastic pipe bomb go off in my hand. Both can be fatal or cause you to lose your hand. I honestly don’t think either is the safer. :suicide:

I guess with my limited knowledge of guns, I was just wanting to know if a steel framed pistol would be more likely to contain or limit the amount of shrapnel released on a KB malfunction versus plastic. Initial thought would lead a person to believe that you are safer with steel but the pipe bomb analogy does a good job of getting the point across that with enough explosive force, steel can certainly be worse than plastic.

One poster on here has already said that the only advantage they think steel frames have over plastic is the ease in finding the pieces later with a metal detector.

What exactly do you mean by steel frame? Because if you mean it the way you are saying it, a sig, fnp, fn FsN, glock, HK, kel-tec, and several other all have a POLYMER frame so none of them would work for you. That limits you to items like a 1911 or FN hi-power or walter

I was holding a brand new Sig 226 the other day which had an all-metal frame.

[s4mur41h4x0r]

-"ShockedNKansas"-"So my question still remains: do you guys think that it is better to be holding an all-steel pistol that goes KB or does the evidence point to no real advantage as far as sustained hand injury?"

This is like asking whether I would rather have a metal pipe bomb explode in my hand or a plastic pipe bomb go off in my hand. Both can be fatal or cause you to lose your hand. I honestly don’t think either is the safer. :suicide:

I guess with my limited knowledge of guns, I was just wanting to know if a steel framed pistol would be more likely to contain or limit the amount of shrapnel released on a KB malfunction versus plastic. Initial thought would lead a person to believe that you are safer with steel but the pipe bomb analogy does a good job of getting the point across that with enough explosive force, steel can certainly be worse than plastic.

One poster on here has already said that the only advantage they think steel frames have over plastic is the ease in finding the pieces later with a metal detector.

What exactly do you mean by steel frame? Because if you mean it the way you are saying it, a sig, fnp, fn FsN, glock, HK, kel-tec, and several other all have a POLYMER frame so none of them would work for you. That limits you to items like a 1911 or FN hi-power or walter

I was holding a brand new Sig 226 the other day which had an all-metal frame.

Ok, name the pistol you are wanting right now, I bet you anything I can find a KB story on it.

This is clearly your first buy. Go test guns out, then come back and ask questions.

How many times do we have to say it, we can clearly talk until we are blue in the face about this, it is just pointless now.

I dont see any point in listening to somebody who will not listen to me, I am out of this thread

[ShockedNKansas]

-"ShockedNKansas"-"So my question still remains: do you guys think that it is better to be holding an all-steel pistol that goes KB or does the evidence point to no real advantage as far as sustained hand injury?"

This is like asking whether I would rather have a metal pipe bomb explode in my hand or a plastic pipe bomb go off in my hand. Both can be fatal or cause you to lose your hand. I honestly don’t think either is the safer. :suicide:

I guess with my limited knowledge of guns, I was just wanting to know if a steel framed pistol would be more likely to contain or limit the amount of shrapnel released on a KB malfunction versus plastic. Initial thought would lead a person to believe that you are safer with steel but the pipe bomb analogy does a good job of getting the point across that with enough explosive force, steel can certainly be worse than plastic.

One poster on here has already said that the only advantage they think steel frames have over plastic is the ease in finding the pieces later with a metal detector.

What exactly do you mean by steel frame? Because if you mean it the way you are saying it, a sig, fnp, fn FsN, glock, HK, kel-tec, and several other all have a POLYMER frame so none of them would work for you. That limits you to items like a 1911 or FN hi-power or walter

I was holding a brand new Sig 226 the other day which had an all-metal frame.

Ok, name the pistol you are wanting right now, I bet you anything I can find a KB story on it.

This is clearly your first buy. Go test guns out, then come back and ask questions.

How many times do we have to say it, we can clearly talk until we are blue in the face about this, it is just pointless now.

I dont see any point in listening to somebody who will not listen to me, I am out of this thread

I'm listening to everyone friend. Thanks for your participation.

[panzermk2]

Guys it has been pretty polite lets keep it that way.

I know it gets frustrating, If you all could only hear some of the phone calls I get every day.

[Cyberfly]

Hmm.
SNK, I can see where you're coming from.
But I still stand by what I said in my first post.
ANYTHING can go KB on you. Whether its a .22 or a howitzer, if it has a controlled explosion inside it, the 'potential' is there.
We can't give anybody any guarantees, we can only tell you that it's VERY rare with this platform.
In fact, it's very rare with MOST platforms. And I have to say, FN is pretty doggone anal in their engineering.
I think that once you shoot the FsN, you'll fall in love with it. It truly is a remarkable weapon.
No, its not a match grade weapon, but Jay can fine tune it to make it damn near one. (Yeah, another shameless plug for my buddy, but they really are that good at what they do!)

The short and simple is, ANY firearm has the potential. But realistically, the FsN's probability is very LOW.

[ddouglas]

ShockedNKansas: Since you "...certainly don't doubt the veracity of the story" you heard, yet you seem so determined to counter the points made by those much more experienced with this pistol, I now suspect that you are not really genuinely concerned. Rather, I suspect you are just making waves to see how high you can raise the froth. Go talk to the guy (your "victim") and bring back the first-hand account instead of just flapping around. Then I'll reconsider my opinion of your motives for asking.

[smportis]

ShockedNKansas: Since you "...certainly don't doubt the veracity of the story" you heard, yet you seem so determined to counter the points made by those much more experienced with this pistol, I now suspect that you are not really genuinely concerned. Rather, I suspect you are just making waves to see how high you can raise the froth. Go talk to the guy (your "victim") and bring back the first-hand account instead of just flapping around. Then I'll reconsider my opinion of your motives for asking.

What - you think he's some Glock factory rep worried about the slow and steady erosion of their market lead by the mighty FsN? C'mon dude, there's no conspiracy here. He just wants someone to say it's safe. Or safe enough to own and enjoy.

Shocked I'll answer your question - polymer is weaker than steel. Probably more apt to shatter in the event of a internal explosion. Yes. Seems like common sense. However I doubt militaries would adopt any weapon they felt was unsafe. I doubt FN would continue to produce unsafe weapons. I doubt people would continue buy an unsafe weapon platform.

There's an acceptable failure rate of guns, just like with anything mechanical. Has the car that you drive ever had a recall of any kind on it during it's entire production life? They all do. They all break, some catastrophically. But that happens so rarely that you accept the risk and drive on. The chance of you having a wreck because the girl next to you is texting is far greater than your car failing in a catastrophic manner. And that is far more likely than your handgun failing. Driving to the range is more risky than overloading your ammo!

I think you are wise to question. And I think you have honest answers. A forum moderator has had one blow up. But, he's still a forum moderator and that says something (can someone ask him to relate the facts behind his incident here? I'd love to hear about it and hear his thoughts, injuries, what the gun did when the round blew, etc).

So although there are true stories of FsNs failing, it is no death trap.

My, non-expert, opinions.

[jgreenberg01]

+1... Very well put smportis!!! :thumb:

[smportis]

Thanks Mr Greenberg.

Shocked: Good link to a long thread about an XDM failure (that I've not completely read). Talks about general gun failures.
http://ingunowners.com/forums/handguns/ ... n_xdm.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

One on a M1A with "factory" ammo:
http://www.thegunzone.com/m1akb.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Glock Failure:
http://www.thegunzone.com/glock/glock-kb-faq.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Multi-gun KB thread (shows an FsN - ouch):
http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/show ... p?t=140613" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

H&K
http://www.thegunzone.com/glock/hk-kb.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

XDm with an interesting quote :
"wow.I'm not a proponent for plastic firearms, but I'm willing to bet that if that were a metal frame..the damage to that persons' hand would have been much worse..thats alot of energy to be vented down and back!" - I never considered that. Perhaps the "plastic" guns are actually safer in that they allow the pressure to dissipate out the sides of the gun rather than up through the top or rear of the gun.
http://www.tngunowners.com/forums/ammun ... -ammo.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Makes me want to wear gloves, and damn sure I'm wearing glasses!

The point here - all guns can fail. I cannot prove anything about FN's safety however, good or bad, as far as failure rates. I do believe in the fact that more history and more guns sold and used (and thus modified and manufactured) probably equals better safety rates, so FsN's *could* be a little less safe than the Toyota Camry of guns - the Glock (or an M9, or a Browning HiPower, Colt 1911). I'm an FN owner, but being objective, that just makes sense.

Sure wish there was a KB registry somewhere for all gun types/models so we could compare KB rates with the numbers manufactured and get a *relative* feel for failure rates.

[f3rr37]

Multi-gun KB thread (shows an FsN - ouch):
http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/show ... p?t=140613" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Actually, didn't hurt too much, the shock deadened the nerve in my hand, so I didn't feel too much. But its fine now.

[SHEEPDOG]

snk, trade it in on a bow or a slingshot.

[TheOtherDave]

snk, trade it in on a bow or a slingshot.

But... but... the slingshot's elastic could break and come back and slap the back of your hand! Those things are death traps!!!

[smportis]

Multi-gun KB thread (shows an FsN - ouch):
http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/show ... p?t=140613" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Actually, didn't hurt too much, the shock deadened the nerve in my hand, so I didn't feel too much. But its fine now.

What happened? Did FN want to see the gun post KB?

[f3rr37]

Multi-gun KB thread (shows an FsN - ouch):
http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/show ... p?t=140613" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Actually, didn't hurt too much, the shock deadened the nerve in my hand, so I didn't feel too much. But its fine now.

What happened? Did FN want to see the gun post KB?

Long story short: reloaded ammunition, they took the gun in, did testing, said it was due to extremely high pressure, and they sent me a new USG.

[smportis]

Multi-gun KB thread (shows an FsN - ouch):
http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/show ... p?t=140613" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Actually, didn't hurt too much, the shock deadened the nerve in my hand, so I didn't feel too much. But its fine now.

What happened? Did FN want to see the gun post KB?

Long story short: reloaded ammunition, they took the gun in, did testing, said it was due to extremely high pressure, and they sent me a new USG.

How old was the gun?

[f3rr37]

How old was the gun?

I had had it for a few years, it was a IOM.

[fzr confused]

Was mine not considered a true "KB" because it was a case neck failure? Jw...

[f3rr37]

Was mine not considered a true "KB" because it was a case neck failure? Jw...

Wasn't yours just an extractor failure that trashed the slide cover?

[fzr confused]

it was a case neck failure that trashed more than just the slide cover i assume. if it was just the slide cover, i am sure they would have fixed it instead of giving me an entirely new gun? especially since they offered me night sites "when they had an extra set" (this was before they sold the FsN with night sites) and they gave me another slide cover which is needed for the night sites when they installed them(as well as lot of free ammo and a half dozen mags)? i dont know exactly what all went wrong with mine or would have needed to be replaced, but if it was just the slide cover, i would assume they would fix as apposed to replace? either way if it is a "KB" or not, i dont think this is normal wear and tear for 154 rounds down the pipe. i know its not THAT BAD, especially compared to yours but i still was very weary about firing my new replacement gun. it could have caused some injuries to myself or anyone standing near me....that was over 2500 rounds ago though and now am very confident in my FsN :thumb:




how much damage is required to be considered a "KB"?

[TheOtherDave]

<Martian> Where was the kaboom? There was supposed to be an earth-shattering kaboom! </Martian>

[ShockedNKansas]

it was a case neck failure that trashed more than just the slide cover i assume. if it was just the slide cover, i am sure they would have fixed it instead of giving me an entirely new gun? especially since they offered me night sites "when they had an extra set" (this was before they sold the FsN with night sites) and they gave me another slide cover which is needed for the night sites when they installed them(as well as lot of free ammo and a half dozen mags)? i dont know exactly what all went wrong with mine or would have needed to be replaced, but if it was just the slide cover, i would assume they would fix as apposed to replace? either way if it is a "KB" or not, i dont think this is normal wear and tear for 154 rounds down the pipe. i know its not THAT BAD, especially compared to yours but i still was very weary about firing my new replacement gun. it could have caused some injuries to myself or anyone standing near me....that was over 2500 rounds ago though and now am very confident in my FsN :thumb:




how much damage is required to be considered a "KB"?

What type of ammo were you using if you don't mind sharing?

[fzr confused]

i was using factory 195 white box at the time that happened. i had shot some 197's as well that day but most every round through it were 195 and every round through it was factory FN.

[ShockedNKansas]

Thanks Mr Greenberg.

Shocked: Good link to a long thread about an XDM failure (that I've not completely read). Talks about general gun failures.
http://ingunowners.com/forums/handguns/ ... n_xdm.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

One on a M1A with "factory" ammo:
http://www.thegunzone.com/m1akb.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Glock Failure:
http://www.thegunzone.com/glock/glock-kb-faq.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Multi-gun KB thread (shows an FsN - ouch):
http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/show ... p?t=140613" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

H&K
http://www.thegunzone.com/glock/hk-kb.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

XDm with an interesting quote :
"wow.I'm not a proponent for plastic firearms, but I'm willing to bet that if that were a metal frame..the damage to that persons' hand would have been much worse..thats alot of energy to be vented down and back!" - I never considered that. Perhaps the "plastic" guns are actually safer in that they allow the pressure to dissipate out the sides of the gun rather than up through the top or rear of the gun.
http://www.tngunowners.com/forums/ammun ... -ammo.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Makes me want to wear gloves, and damn sure I'm wearing glasses!

The point here - all guns can fail. I cannot prove anything about FN's safety however, good or bad, as far as failure rates. I do believe in the fact that more history and more guns sold and used (and thus modified and manufactured) probably equals better safety rates, so FsN's *could* be a little less safe than the Toyota Camry of guns - the Glock (or an M9, or a Browning HiPower, Colt 1911). I'm an FN owner, but being objective, that just makes sense.

Sure wish there was a KB registry somewhere for all gun types/models so we could compare KB rates with the numbers manufactured and get a *relative* feel for failure rates.

Great post smportis! Thanks so much for the time you spent putting it together. It really got me thinking about the reliability of Springfields. One of the guns I was planning on picking up was a Springfield XLM 9mm compact because I LOVE the two magazine design that gives you a very concealable pistol with one clip and a full-sized handle with the 19+1 clip.

I have since completed some fairly comprehensive research on the Springfields and it appears that it isn't a "better Glock". Blue's advice on getting a Glock certainly holds true here. I shot one the other night at the range and managed to pinch my hand pretty badly when loading a small magazine and the gun feels quite unsure when firing because I can't get my pinky on the grip when using the smaller mag. My hands are just too big for a compact gun I imagine. Also, the gun range I was at mentioned that their XM rentals are always going back to the factory for repairs compared to their Glocks.

I'm planning on buying 2 or 3 pistols and want to get a good variety of platforms and calibers. The 5.7 is certainly in it's own category but I'm wondering now if it is worth the price of almost two guns. That's especially true when you consider that the FsN is only a 22mag... ... ... ... JUST KIDDING!! LOL

I am also strongly considering choosing one of the FN 9mm's as my "9mm gun". It has some excellent reviews. I just wish it had a slightly larger mag. I love the big mags!

I also shot a S&W 1911. That gun was a pleasure to shoot.

[blueorison]

A clip is not the same thing as a magazine. It is a good idea to know the difference between the two.

Some people don't care, but if you speak the truth, then that is what you will believe in.

[toyslr]

I keep waiting on this thread to KABOOOOOM!

[panzermk2]

It would have only needed a slide cover and some small parts. Due to liability issues and lawyers they replaced the gun.

I would not call it a KB. Ejectors fail and break often. It just so happen this one sits under a polymer cover and the cover cracked.

[blueorison]

case neck failures; they are not uncommon in many calibers.

[fzr confused]

i understand you guys do not consider mine a KB, but where is the line? what defines what a KB is and what a KB is not? to me, a KB is when parts of the gun go flying off and is no longer functional. yours?

[f3rr37]

i understand you guys do not consider mine a KB, but where is the line? what defines what a KB is and what a KB is not? to me, a KB is when parts of the gun go flying off and is no longer functional. yours?

Would you have considered it a KB if there was no slide cover over the extractor and the extractor failed and came off w/o damage to anything else?

[ddouglas]

I would think a KB is any release of pressure that was unintended and not designed into the gun.

[ShockedNKansas]

A clip is not the same thing as a magazine. It is a good idea to know the difference between the two.

Some people don't care, but if you speak the truth, then that is what you will believe in.

It only matters to the truly pretentious and/or anal if you know the difference between the two on an interweb message board. I used the term mag/magazine 5 times and clip twice in the post you are referencing. Sue me! :p

[ShockedNKansas]

I would think a KB is any release of pressure that was unintended and not designed into the gun.

For example: Eating at Taco Bell before you go to the shooting range. :thumb: :laugh:

[blueorison]

A clip is not the same thing as a magazine. It is a good idea to know the difference between the two.

Some people don't care, but if you speak the truth, then that is what you will believe in.

It only matters to the truly pretentious and/or anal if you know the difference between the two on an interweb message board. I used the term mag/magazine 5 times and clip twice in the post you are referencing. Sue me! :p

You should really not take things so personally. I was not referencing you.

I hardly think you should be calling names around here. More importantly, watch your language on the open boards.

[ShockedNKansas]

A clip is not the same thing as a magazine. It is a good idea to know the difference between the two.

Some people don't care, but if you speak the truth, then that is what you will believe in.

It only matters to the truly pretentious and/or anal if you know the difference between the two on an interweb message board. I used the term mag/magazine 5 times and clip twice in the post you are referencing. Sue me! :p

You should really not take things so personally. I was not referencing you.

I hardly think you should be calling names around here. More importantly, watch your language on the open boards.

Uhhhhhhh...... okay? :facepalm:

:thumb:

[fzr confused]

i understand you guys do not consider mine a KB, but where is the line? what defines what a KB is and what a KB is not? to me, a KB is when parts of the gun go flying off and is no longer functional. yours?

Would you have considered it a KB if there was no slide cover over the extractor and the extractor failed and came off w/o damage to anything else?

if the extractor went flying, then yes i would. i see how having the cover on there makes it appear worse, but but parts of my gun did go flying and could have caused damage to the person next to me if it hit them. like i have said, if parts go flying and the gun is no longer functional then i would consider it a KB, a minor KB but still a boom! now i have had other guns BREAK on me and did NOT consider them KB's but that was due to no parts went flying and no additional danger was there.

so again i ask, where is the line? does it have to ruin the slide? puncture the lower part? what needs to happen?

[panzermk2]

Can you still use the frame? Yes no KB, No=KB

This is for polymer frames. I have seen 38 super 1911's let go blasting thousands of tiny bits of grip panel into the shooters hand. The frame was easily fixed and used again. The shooter's hand not so much.

[fzr confused]

Ok if that is the accepted definition then I will go with that. Mine did not KB

[Nickf150fx4]

Whether it did actually KB or not the biggest concern is how FN
takes care of the situation. Over the years I've seen some interesting customer service from different gun companies. I've read where some people have had similar situations but with a different manufacturer and had to actually pay for the new parts to get fixed on a brand new gun...to me that's not right. I don't care if it's a $200 high point or a $2000 kimber.

[prc-104]

I've been carrying my 57 as a daily-carry for more than five years.
It's a work tool and it gets used a fair bit.
Never a problem, never a doubt.
Highly recommended by me, for what that's worth.
/john

[Valorius]

But several of the "old-timers" said they had fired the FsN many times and enjoyed the way it shot. There was definitely no perceived malice towards FN's or plastic guns in general. Nobody had a negative thing to say about Glocks, that is for sure. They just had a very scary story (IMO) to share that just happened recently. They also said they have several people in their range that routinely shoot FsN's.

Far, far, far more people shoot themselves with their glocks than will ever be injured by FN Five Sevens blowing up in their hands.

[panzermk2]

But several of the "old-timers" said they had fired the FsN many times and enjoyed the way it shot. There was definitely no perceived malice towards FN's or plastic guns in general. Nobody had a negative thing to say about Glocks, that is for sure. They just had a very scary story (IMO) to share that just happened recently. They also said they have several people in their range that routinely shoot FsN's.

Far, far, far more people shoot themselves with their glocks than will ever be injured by FN Five Sevens blowing up in their hands.

LOL I never thought of it that way. Waco alone put Glock over the top.

[toyslr]

Waco put glock over the top? Please explain....

[EARS]

I've heard the bull about the USG and the 5.7 ammo. All I can say is that I've carried mine every time I left the house for work or personal protection for several years. I carry it because I trust it. I've fired over a thousand rounds. I have never had a malfuction, misfire, etc. either with the gun or the ammo. I used to the 195 and 197 ammo. I now use EA Ammo which is much better and dependable. I've carried several other weapons over the 45 years I've been carrying. I highly recommend the gun and the EA Ammo. Both will get the job done. They make an excellent team. Reminder: Most owners and employees of gun shop don't really have much experience or on hand knowledge of what they sell. I've had to on several occassions show a owner how to clear a weapon. The idiot that carry 4 guns, needs to have them taken away because he doesn't have a full deck.

[panzermk2]

Waco put glock over the top? Please explain....

If you watch the vids you can see FBI types on the roof. On the opposite side/fare side more FBI types from a copter opened up on the roof. The FBI types on the roof that you could see though they where taking firing from the building and started pulling their glocks from their thigh rigs to return fire. Unfortunately in there hurry to draw they jammed their trigger fingers into the guard as they where drawing and shot them selves in the thigh and leg area.

Even funnier the rest of the keystoned cops when they saw those agents go down the also assumed it was fire from the building and started shooting more.

I know the feds went over board to cover up all the fratricide.

[Nickf150fx4]

Panzer: :lmao: that story just made my day. Where could i find this video you speak of

[panzermk2]

Should have been more specific, ATF 2:06 is the first time. Watching this reminded of just how insanely out of control our government is and it's only gotten worse.

[drinksabit]

Should have been more specific, ATF 2:06 is the first time. Watching this reminded of just how insanely out of control our government is and it's only gotten worse.

You can say that again! And no one is held accountable for anything. No body goes to jail or loses a pension, just a bad day at the office attitude.

BTW received my Protector II's. Thanks, and thanks for the little blue boxes they came in. That was a nice touch. Matches my Big Blue (Dillon 550b) press.

I was going to wait to see how it turns out before saying anything about it, but while I am here... Over the past year, I have loaded a couple of thousand 45ACP's. I had one go KB in my Kimber (no damage to the gun) and one go KB in my FNP-45. I admitted to the reloads, which voids the warrantee and sent the FN back for repairs. I sent it to them 15 days ago, and so far, it is just “being evaluated”. I’ll let you guys know how it turns out. BTW, I wasn’t hurt the first time, but I was the second. All I can figure is that somehow I double charged these two shells. I have put my Dillon back for now, and just received 3k factory loads. I apparently suck at reloading.

Update:

"Waiting For Replacement To Be Processed For Customer
We have determined your firearm is in need of replacement. The Browning/Winchester Service Center is processing an order for a replacement firearm."

Cool huh? Makes me feel better for placing an order today with Charles at A&A for pretty much the same gun in a 9mm for the wife even though she shoots the 45 pretty well.

[panzermk2]

With no powder check and manual indexing in can happen.

[romer522]

Should have been more specific, ATF 2:06 is the first time. Watching this reminded of just how insanely out of control our government is and it's only gotten worse.

Some of the commentary on that video is more made-up than the stuff the government put out.

[MySig556]

I am in agreement that all forms of guns can blow up. The question that I have is.. do guns with plastic frames offer less protection when they do?

It appears that FsN's have very little tendency to fire OOB, but whatever nearly blew this guy's hand off worries me more than a little bit. If I'm allowed to stereotype a bit, I would assume dentists probably do not occupy the demographic that includes serious reloaders or high-performance after market ammo purchasers. I tend to believe him when he told the range owners that he was using factory ammo.

He was not using factory ammo! He had hand reloaded ammo...

I have read about this guy on a few sites and on one of the sites he does admit to reloading him own ammo. The problem he ran into to cause his five-seven to blow up in his hand was because he used the wrong powder, wrong gas pressure, and bullet grain.

I did 5 years of research on reloading before I ever loaded my first round. Reloading is pretty easy if you understand how a bullet functions. I am now loading 200 round an hour and that includes checking the powder feed every 10 rounds to make sure I am getting the right amount in each load.

[ShockedNKansas]

I really didn't want to bump this thread, but since it keeps coming back up I will update everybody on the original story and KB. I tried very hard to get in contact with the person whom the story was originally about and talked to just about everybody that worked at this particular shooting range.

It appears that the consensus is there were two KBs that week at the range. One was an FsN and the other was a Ruger Judge. I was told by several employees that the dentist with the severely injured hand was shooting the Judge and had a reloaded .45 round blow up on him. The FsN was shot by another unnamed person and was not seriously injured. I was told that he was also shooting reloads as well.

I guess the confusion came from two KBs only a couple days apart. After confirming from several employees that both KBs involved reloads I was at peace with the issue.

Sorry for the confusion and watch those reloads fellas!

[blueorison]

I don't think any of us were confused

We've heard "stories" too many times and we only believe empirical evidence.

Thank you for the clarification.

[fcorey]

I appreciate all the contributions thus far as they have certainly been helpful. One thing though, people have kind of fixated on the four-gunslinging ex-cop who probably does that for the response he gets when customers come into his shop. He actually appears quite lucid and knowledgeable when you talk to him. He really had nothing negative to say about the FsN and said he liked shooting it. The 22mag comment is probably the majority opinion of most gun owners who haven't had the privilege of learning about EA's ammo. Let's be honest, 197 ammo is pretty anemic and that is what two gun ranges I have visited carry as well as the local Gander Mountain. In fact, the range I shot at last night only allows 197 to be fired.

But back to my point... while a lot of people in here have chosen to focus on the salty ex-cop, the real issue is a FsN that grenade'd in the hand of a dentist while firing factory ammo causing him to possibly never regain full use of his hand. There were 3 men behind the counter recalling the incident at the time, not just "Mr. Pistol". So my question still remains: do you guys think that it is better to be holding an all-steel pistol that goes KB or does the evidence point to no real advantage as far as sustained hand injury? The fact that they said the FsN completely exploded in the hand of the dentist bothers me. They could have been exaggerating but they went so far as to say they were picking up little pieces of plastic all over the range.

I primarily shoot trap and was present when a Krieghoff K80 malfunctioned at Minuteman on the field next to where I was shooting. Not made out of plastic, but a $15K competition gun that is milled out of solid stock. It was only a few years old, the shooter was using factory STS loads. He ended up in the hospital with shrapnel in his hand and face. He's damn lucky he didnt lose an eye. The gun went back to Krieghoff for a full post mortem. My point is that any gun can malfunction, a cheap one, or an expensive one. I have an FNP9 and an FSN both seem to be very solidly engineered. While its good to get information from many sources its not a substitute for first hand knowledge. good luck