FiveseveNForum.com

FNH SS197SR 40gr V-Max


Level II Body Armor: Penetrated 9 layers






American Eagle 40gr TMJ


Level II Body Armor: Complete penetration




Level IIIA Body Armor: Penetrated 16 layers






FNH SS195LF 28gr JHP


Level II Body Armor: Complete penetration






FNH SS198LF 28gr JHP


Level IIIA Body Armor: Penetrated 20 layers






FNH SS190AP 31gr FMJ


Level IIIA Body Armor: Complete penetration of three body armor panels






FNH SB193 Subsonic 55gr FMJ


Level II Body Armor: Complete penetration




Level IIIA Body Armor: Complete penetration






EA S4M 28gr JHP


Level IIIA Body Armor: Complete penetration




Level IIIA Body Armor: Complete penetration




Level IIIA Body Armor: Complete penetration






EA T6 PFP 28gr JHP


Level IIIA Body Armor: Complete penetration




Level IIIA Body Armor: Complete penetration






EA ProtecTOR 40gr V-Max


Level II Body Armor: Complete penetration




Level IIIA Body Armor: Penetrated 15 layers






EA ProtecTOR II 50gr


Level II Body Armor: Complete penetration






EA ProtecTOR IV 55gr Nosler


Level II Body Armor: Penetrated 17 layers






EA PenetraTOR 55gr


Level II Body Armor: Complete penetration






EA VarminTOR 30gr Match Grade FB Varmint


Level IIIA Body Armor: Complete penetration

All of Buffman's hard work deserves a showcase in an easy to access format. As more tests are conducted, I will update the front page. Thanks Buffman!

I agree. Great work Buffman.

Here are the Five SeveN body armor tests i did, so we have them all in one thread together:
(My videos are not as nice as Buffman's, but they do support his conclusions, and test some rounds against IIIA armor that he tested against II)

SS192, Elite Pro I, Elite Pro II, and Elite S4M vs IIIA vest:




SS197SR vs IIIA:



SS195LF Blue Box vs IIIA:



Elite S4M and Win SXT 9mm control rd vs IIIA:



In my tests, i got the following results:

SS197SR- 10 layers penetration on a 12 layer IIA panel with an index finger sized protrusion from rear fired from unthreaded FsN. This amount of penetration was mimicked in another test i performed against a Safariland IIIA vest with ballistic stab protector pad. The IIIA vest showed no appreciable backface deformation.

SS195LF Blue Box- Complete penetration of a 25 layer Safariland IIIA vest with ballistic stab backer (the backer in this vest has stopped 10mm 180gr JHP all by itself) using threaded FsN.

SS192- Complete penetration of same Safariland IIIA vest with both threaded and unthreaded barrel test shots on different days. Total penetration appears to be about 30 layers, plus the ballistic stab backer.

Elite S4M- Almost shot clean through BOTH panels of same Safariland IIIA vest, with total penetration of 49 layers of kevlar and a ballistic stab backer.

Elite Pro I- failed to penetrate same Safariland IIIA

Elite Pro II- failed to penetrate same Safariland IIIA

This same Safariland IIIA vest was also tested against, and defeated, a 12 ga .50 cal solid copper 1oz sabot slug, a .500 S&W 350gr JHP, all kinds of 9mm including an 80gr+P SCHP fired from a 16" carbine, as well as numerous 10mm's and .45 acp.

The only round to penetrate it besides 5.7x28mm 28gr OTM (which penetrates on every shot from a threaded FsN, regardless of the variant type) was Buffalo Bore 9mm+P+ hardcast lead core non expanding montana gold match hollowpoint ammunition. Adv velocity 1425fps, adv energy 515 fpe.

I have videos for almost all of these tests.

Conclusion: Any version of 28gr OTM will defeat a IIIA vest when fired from a threaded FsN. SS192 and 198 and 195 White Box and Elite S4M will defeat even a superior IIIA vest, such as the safariland I tested, which, because of it's ballistic stab protector (which catches lots of bullets in it's own right, even if you flip the vest around and shoot it from the wearers side), actually offers a good deal more protection than a typical IIIA vest does.

Further conclusion:

No expanding 5.7mm round that i have tested will defeat a IIIA vest with ballistic stab protection. I know Buffman has shot Clark Custom 30gr JHP through a IIIA, but i don't know if it had a ballistic rated stab protector. Most vests do not.

Note: None of my tests used a trauma, or SAPI plate of any kind. With even a non ballistic-ally rated trauma plate in place, penetration levels for all rounds are significantly reduced.

Finally, in other tests, i have shot Elite S4M through up to 1/2" thick ballistic rated fiberglass plate. However, 9/16" fiberglass plate (rated to stop .30 carbine rifle fire) stops S4M with very minimal backface deformation.

Thanks man!
Very interested.

This is great information and I highly appreciate everyone's input as well as taking the time & money to go out and conduct all of these tests. I look forward to more comparisons. I personally would like to do some tests with bullet penetration out of a 16" AR57. Only thing holding me back at the moment is the finances to buy the ammo and vests. Maybe I can convince a few buddies to chip in and make a day of it.

Keep the info flowing!

The Reca wrote:This is great information and I highly appreciate everyone's input as well as taking the time & money to go out and conduct all of these tests. I look forward to more comparisons. I personally would like to do some tests with bullet penetration out of a 16" AR57. Only thing holding me back at the moment is the finances to buy the ammo and vests. Maybe I can convince a few buddies to chip in and make a day of it.

Keep the info flowing!

I might be able to save you some time. Everything should penetrate fully out of a 16" AR-57 except for perhaps the SS197 which should fragment wildly at AR-57 speeds.

If you want to buy some inexpensive test panels look here:

http://www.bulletproofme.com/Body_Armor ... LIST.shtml

Scroll down to "police surplus" and then "panels for test shooting."

You can get a 6"x14" level IIIa panel for $40 there. I got 2 of them for my T6 tests next week. Won't be using my AR57 though, it's a 12" SBR - will just be testing it out of my FsN. Ballistic gelatin & clay blocks will be used.

I hope to test the new T6 this weekend.. Hopefully!

Buffman wrote:I hope to test the new T6 this weekend.. Hopefully!

Is this a race to see who's video goes up first (mine will be on youtube mid next week)? :laugh:

"Is this a race to see who's video goes up first (mine will be on youtube mid next week)"

- Greenberg

jgreenberg01 wrote:

Buffman wrote:I hope to test the new T6 this weekend.. Hopefully!

Is this a race to see who's video goes up first (mine will be on youtube mid next week)? :laugh:

you probably already have your ammo, I don't

I do, but it takes 3 days to cook the gelatin blocks and I am starting that process tonight. The earliest I can do the tests is next Tuesday.

I just plan on simple velocity tests, water jug tests, and maybe a vest test. My major plan this weekend is testing SS190 vs a pork shoulder

I can get you some more lvl 3 small panels..

For a price (. :

Buffman wrote:I just plan on simple velocity tests, water jug tests, and maybe a vest test. My major plan this weekend is testing SS190 vs a pork shoulder

You must shoot it through some panels so I can add it to your "Official Barrage" page. I predict it goes through at least 3 panels. Do you have any left that aren't completely shot up?

Don't worry, that's what I will be doing...

Ok sweet! :thumb:

ShockedNKansas wrote:

Buffman wrote:I just plan on simple velocity tests, water jug tests, and maybe a vest test. My major plan this weekend is testing SS190 vs a pork shoulder

You must shoot it through some panels so I can add it to your "Official Barrage" page. I predict it goes through at least 3 panels. Do you have any left that aren't completely shot up?

I have some with one or two shots in them, that I could make work

Spent the last night cooking 3 20lb blocks of ballistic gelatin. Now they sit in the firdge for 3 days.

By the way, for anyone who has never made gel blocks, while they're cooking, they smell like a$$...

jgreenberg01 wrote:Spent the last night cooking 3 20lb blocks of ballistic gelatin. Now they sit in the firdge for 3 days.

By the way, for anyone who has never made gel blocks, while they're cooking, they smell like a$$...

I have never mad a gel block but would be interested in doing so. I guess I will do a youtube search on how to do it. Does the smell eventually go away or do you have to scrub the heck out of the oven afterwards? I will look it up now and hopefully some of my questions will get answered.

*Edit*
Ok so I guess they don't even go in the oven.. Seems like a very long process though. Good luck and I am looking forward to seeing the video(s).

If you do it right, there's nothing to scrub (yeah, yeah TWSS). The smell mostly dissipates by the next day. Mostly. This will answer your how-to questions:

Thanks Jgreen

The Reca wrote:

jgreenberg01 wrote:Spent the last night cooking 3 20lb blocks of ballistic gelatin. Now they sit in the firdge for 3 days.

By the way, for anyone who has never made gel blocks, while they're cooking, they smell like a$$...

I have never mad a gel block but would be interested in doing so. I guess I will do a youtube search on how to do it. Does the smell eventually go away or do you have to scrub the heck out of the oven afterwards? I will look it up now and hopefully some of my questions will get answered.

*Edit*
Ok so I guess they don't even go in the oven.. Seems like a very long process though. Good luck and I am looking forward to seeing the video(s).

http://ballistekgel.com/

jgreenberg01 wrote:Spent the last night cooking 3 20lb blocks of ballistic gelatin. Now they sit in the firdge for 3 days.

By the way, for anyone who has never made gel blocks, while they're cooking, they smell like a$$...

Bad ass, not the good kind!

I'm interested in seeing the T6 gel tests. I already know what it'll do to a IIIA.

If possible you should test it with a stab or 'trauma' plate installed. Cause against a IIIA T6 is just going to zip through like it's not there.

S4M does too. 49 layers of kevlar and TWO ballistically rated stab backers in my test!

I don't know if I should post my test with IIIA, as the rear two panels I thought i placed them on good sections and the bullets came within 1/2" of another previous shot. It went through one panel with ease.

1/2" is plenty far enough away that it won't have any effect for such a small pointed projectile.

Post it up!

Valorius wrote:1/2" is plenty far enough away that it won't have any effect for such a small pointed projectile.

Post it up!

Not quite. According to the NIJ this is what they require for testing purposes:

7.6.2 Minimum Shot-to-Shot Distance

The minimum shot-to-shot distance shall be 51 mm (2.0 in).
This distance may be decreased at the request of the armor manufacturer.

For the original reference, go to the bottom of page 40 of this link.

https://www.ncjrs.gov/pdffiles1/nij/223054.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

That's if you want to follow their protocols anyway.

Are we following NIJ protocols? I don't think so...i haven't seen any data about the temp and calibration of the backing clay in any of these tests.

Based on my own personal test results if you shot two 9mm bullets on a IIIA 1/2" apart the vest would stop them both. When it comes to a T6 i don't think it would matter because the vest is not going to stop a T6 regardless.

Valorius wrote:Are we following NIJ protocols? I don't think so...i haven't seen any data about the temp and calibration of the backing clay in any of these tests.

Based on my own personal test results if you shot two 9mm bullets on a IIIA 1/2" apart the vest would stop them both. When it comes to a T6 i don't think it would matter because the vest is not going to stop a T6 regardless.

No, not at all. I brought it up for informational purposes only.

I found that when having "discussions" with the 5.7x28 naysayers, it's helpful to know where they are coming from, especially the FBI protocol fan bois. Not that it really matters because we can't win - they have their minds made up already and most have never even handled, much less fired the platform. It does not hurt to know where people like that are coming from though.

My video tests don't follow protocol to the T, but I do go to great pains to properly calibrate the gelatin blocks as per FBI protocol. Fan bois aside, it at the very least allows us to use a consistent medium to compare bullet performance. Is it the be-all, end-all? Certainly not. As Jay points out: we're not going to be shooting at gelatin bad guys - they will have bone, ligament, tendon, fat and air pockets. Again, it's just a consistency thing and you really need that to make fair comparisons.

I hear ya.

But i don't think the 1/2" thing matters for the purposes of Buffman's tests....he should post the video.

I agree. It doesn't hurt to have additional data, the more we have, the more informed decisions can be made.

Okay, I added Greenberg's two BA videos to the list.

IIIA vs T6:

Okay, added yours and Jeff's additional S4M through 2 layers test. This sticky is ready for Congress... lol :facepalm:

If you wish to add any of mine in this thread to the original sticky feel free. If nothing else, i'd add the SS195LF Blue box vs IIIA test. No one else has a video of that on here but me i think.

I was also quite surprised at the result of the test.

Valorius wrote:If you wish to add any of mine in this thread to the original sticky feel free. If nothing else, i'd add the SS195LF Blue box vs IIIA test. No one else has a video of that on here but me i think.

I was also quite surprised at the result of the test.

Are your videos edited down a bit? Last I remember it was just running video with everything on it?

ETA: You know what? I don't think we should highlight your video of SS195 beating IIIa. I don't know if it was because of your threaded muzzle, or a weak vest, but announcing to the world that FN's widely available SS195 (target ammo) beats IIIa is not wise -- even if it's true, which it shouldn't be. That's a good way to see another ammo shortage.

I'll be honest with you, it might even be a good idea to take that video down. Because if you did get a weak vest, and SS195 will not penetrate a legit IIIa vest, then you are doing the work of the Brady Bunch advertising FN rounds that penetrate IIIa when they don't.

I know you tested that vest against other rounds, and I know it stopped them, but SS195 has been tested by numerous people against IIIa and it never penetrated. SS195 is pretty much known by all not to be able to beat IIIa. Only your tests show it differently.

Edited down? Why don't you watch them and see for yourself?

The tests I did proved that Safariland IIIA vest was anything but weak. If anything, it's a top tier vest. The ballistic stab panels in that vest stopped max pressure 10mm 180gr gold dots by themselves.

This same vest stopped Elite Pro I, Elite Pro II, SS197SR, 9mm HST, Gold Dot 9mm+P+, 10mm max pressure Gold Dot, .45 acp FMJ and JHP, .500 magnum 350gr JHP, and 12ga 3" magnum solid copper sabot slugs. I was tremendously impressed with the performance of the safariland vest i tested.

I am not taking the video down. SS195LF from a threaded barrel defeats even a top end IIIA vest when fired from a threaded FsN. (considering that buffman clocked SS195LF at over 2000fps it should probably penetrate even without the threading, but with the extra 100+fps or so from the threading...you're at or above SS198 velocity)

It is what it is, the video is staying up.

My tests also revealed at least one 9mm+P+ round (Buffalo Bore 115gr+P+ Montana Gold MHP) that will defeat a IIIA, so there's really nothing special about the fact that 5.7mm will do it too.

Valorius wrote:Edited down? Why don't you watch them and see for yourself?

The tests I did proved that Safariland IIIA vest was anything but weak. If anything, it's a top tier vest. The ballistic stab panels in that vest stopped max pressure 10mm 180gr gold dots by themselves.

This same vest stopped Elite Pro I, Elite Pro II, SS197SR, 9mm HST, Gold Dot 9mm+P+, 10mm max pressure Gold Dot, .45 acp FMJ and JHP, .500 magnum 350gr JHP, and 12ga 3" magnum solid copper sabot slugs. I was tremendously impressed with the performance of the safariland vest i tested.

I am not taking the video down. SS195LF from a threaded barrel defeats even a top end IIIA vest when fired from a threaded FsN. (considering that buffman clocked SS195LF at over 2000fps it should probably penetrate even without the threading, but with the extra 100+fps or so from the threading...you're at or above SS198 velocity)

It is what it is, the video is staying up.

My tests also revealed at least one 9mm+P+ round (Buffalo Bore 115gr+P+ Montana Gold MHP) that will defeat a IIIA, so there's really nothing special about the fact that 5.7mm will do it too.

It was just a suggestion.

There is a huge difference between a readily available factory round penetrating IIIa and this one boutique (probably over-pressured) Buffalo Bore round (which you said was discontinued). If the reality is, that SS195 will penetrate IIIa, and the info becomes widely known, there will be ammo changesd coming from FN -- again. The thing is, they already dumbed down their offerings because of the last outcry. Don't you think that FN knows whether or not their factory rounds penetrate IIIa?

What we need to see now is a test of Elite Varminter vs a IIIA vest, and some chrono tests.

Valorius wrote:What we need to see now is a test of Elite Varminter vs a IIIA vest, and some chrono tests.

Already been done. The vest lost.

Anyone could load the Montana Gold 115gr match HP to 1400fps from a 9mm G17, building up the load slowly, and it will penetrate a IIIA.

Several reloading catalogs show a listing in .357 sig for a 115gr JHP at 1500fps. So it would be easy to duplicate the ballistics of the 9mm+P+ Buffalo Bore round (which yes, is obviously big time over pressure). God even knows how fast you could drive a 115gr MG hollowpoint in a .357 magnum. Probably 1700 or 1800fps.

You could also just load 115gr hard cast lead flat nose or SWC ammo to the same velocity and get the same results as well. I expect that these hard cast lead bullets would perform significantly better than standard FMJ, which has a soft lead core, and probably even better than soft core TMJ as well. The hard cast bullets just don't get deformed as much.

Bottom line: 9mm+P+, .357 Sig, and .357 magnum are all capable of defeating IIIA body armor as long as you use the right bullet. Which makes it exactly the same as 5.7mm.

panzermk2 wrote:

Valorius wrote:What we need to see now is a test of Elite Varminter vs a IIIA vest, and some chrono tests.

Already been done. The vest lost.

OK, thanks. Doesn't surprise me.

I'm thinking Varminter might be one of the best SD loads in the market in 5.7mm right now.

No video i'm guessing?

Valorius wrote:A
I'm thinking Varminter might be one of the best SD loads in the market in 5.7mm right now.

No video i'm guessing?

If you do a search going back three years ago on this forum when Pro1 was out of stock and Var1 was in stock I stated that the Var1 barely lost to the Pro1 in SD role. That if some one needed a SD round ASAP that the Var1 is a damn good SD round.

Vid which was made in the last week or so is not in the public section.

Valorius wrote:What we need to see now is a test of Elite Varminter vs a IIIA vest, and some chrono tests.

By "we", you really mean "I", right?

I'm not picking on you, but who else really NEEDS to see this test?

And even when the "test" is posted in video form, all that happens is people are never satisfied with the "RIGHT" temperatures, barometric pressure, FPS, chronograph, and basically spout off like they are the experts of their fields.

Tell me I'm wrong.

panzermk2 wrote:If you do a search going back three years ago on this forum when Pro1 was out of stock and Var1 was in stock I stated that the Var1 barely lost to the Pro1 in SD role. That if some one needed a SD round ASAP that the Var1 is a damn good SD round.

I concur.

@Blue, you act as if my videos weren't also criticized. lol...it's the internet. It is what it is.

Cold, thoughtful analysis is not the same as criticism. Please do not be offended.

I have some Fiberglass plate armor in 4 different thicknesses that i'd like to test against T6.

The 9/16" plates i have will actually stop S4M even from a threaded FsN. (not sure on the rating)
1/2" stops Protector I threaded, and SS192 threaded (exceeds ARMY MIL-STD-662F)
3/8" stops Protector II threaded and barely stops SS195LF BB threaded (NIJ IIIA rated)
1/4" stops SS197SR or 9mm+P NATO M882 FMJ (NIJ II rated)

The 9/16" plates are rated to stop .30 carbine FMJ fire from an M1 carbine.

Looks like you need to buy some T6!

Elite S4M vs Safariland IIIA 25 layer vest with ballistic rated stab panels and 1/4" thick stand alone level II fiberglass trauma plate, with Federal 9mm HST control shot.

The video is long and unedited. Skip to the last two minutes if you just want to see the S4M test:



RESULT: Plate defeated, but IIIA vest stopped S4M. (and 9mm)

Off video i later counted how many levels of kevlar were defeated. It looks like the S4M tore 18 layers of Kevlar after defeating the stand alone level II plate. So it's very likely that S4M will probably still defeat a level II vest with a level II stand alone plate.

Other tests i've done against these plates:

S4M vs 9/16" stand alone fiberglass plate (rated to stop .30 carbine rifle fire): No penetration, minimal back face spalling.

S4M vs 1/2" stand alone fiberglass plate (exceeds IIIA protection), penetrates.

SS195LF blue box and SS192 vs 1/2" stand alone fiberglass plate, stopped, minimal back face deformation.

SS195LF blue box and SS192 vs 5/16" fiberglass plate (stand alone level IIIA), penetrates.

SS197SR vs 1/4" fiberglass plate (stand alone level II), stopped.

pro IV :

var 1:


9mm as a comparison:

Great tests, thanks. I'm surprised the Pro IV penetrated as deeply as it did. The Varmintor is a very promising looking defensive load.

SS198LF LE only loading vs 9/16" plate armor (I said 1/2" in video, but measured post test and it's 9/16"). Shot this up my uncles place out in the sticks of Pa.

First video is a control test with Aguila 40gr .22LR Interceptor @ approx 1550 fps from a 22" rifle (don't laugh, this combo actually comes within 75fps of the velocity of 40gr Fed American Eagle TMJ, and will penetrate 12-15 layers in soft kevlar in my tests), followed by a shot of Buffalo Barnes .380 80gr+P SCHP.



Second video is SS198 from threaded barrel shot into 9/16" plate.



Last video is post shot plate inspection. The round was easily defeated. In fact these plates have in the past stopped Elite S4M as well.



My battery conveniently died in the middle of the test, so my apologies that the video is broken into two parts, and the last part is cut short.

Anyway, this plate gives multi-hit protection from Elite S4M and SS1980 even at point blank range, when fired from a threaded five seven. Pretty darn impressive.

Same day, same gun (threaded barrel FsN), same engagement range (less than 5 feet), same vest. This is probably as accurate of a DIRECT head to head comparison of these rounds as we're ever going to get:

US Armor (manufactured 1997) IIIA vest (25 layers, no stab protection) vs:

SS192 and SS195:



SS198:



Elite S4M:



Given that myself and others have all shot SS192 and SS198 through various IIIA's, and that i have shot SS195 through a Safariland IIIA, it just goes to show you that not all IIIA vests are created equal!

Performance vs my own personal US Armor IIIA work vest:

SS192: 15 layers
SS195: 10 layers
SS198: 20 layers
Elite S4M: Clean penetration

Those penetration figures clearly suggest that SS192 is significantly hotter than blue box 195, despite previous user velocity listings. I REALLY need a chronograph.

This vest dramatically outperformed the Safariland IIIA and Second Chance vest panel i've used in other tests, which is amazing, because the Safariland IIIA performed quite well in it's own right: Stopping Elite Protector I in the 2000fps range and Elite Protector II as fired from my threaded barrel FsN.

I will rest easy wearing this vest in the future, that's for sure!!!

If you look at some of my posts from years ago I stated the Var1 would be a pretty good SD round.

I agree with that assessment. S4M is still better though IMO...much better penetration. These tests once again demonstrate that it is the be all, end all of 28gr OTM performance and penetration.

I wonder if the added velocity of a PS90 carbine (non-SBR) would make much difference in IIIA penetration.

here's SS197SR from the PS90:

LOL Can I play?