Alliant Bullseye 5.7 reloading thread

[sharky47]

***** This info is based on a 16" bbl AR57, your mileage may vary *****


Ok, I wanted to go ahead and get a fresh thread going regarding the use of Alliant Bullseye powder in the 5.7 FN cartridge.

I worked up a very mild starting load using Quickload internal ballistics software, I double/triple checked my calculations and loaded up five test rounds with:

4.0g of Bullseye powder

40g Hornady V-max boat tail projo

Federal small rifle primer

Once fired brass


According to QL, this load should produce:

32,758 PSI max pressure

2102 FPS

392 ft lbs

64.5% case fill

100% powder burn, no waste and minimal exhaust noise for the suppressor to deal with


I fired them yesterday afternoon with my shiny new Chrono (xmas present from me, to me), but it was real late in the afternoon and the angle of the sun was making it hard to get a good reading.

From the four rounds that registered, the average FPS was right at 1900 FPS. All five rounds fired, bullets exited the barrel, cases extracted and ejected, recoil was smooth and normal. Cases look great, normal shoulder movement, primers were rounded with no signs of pressure in the least bit - only thing was that the neck area was a little sootier than normal - but that is to be expected as Bullseye is known for being on the dirty side.

I was not firing for accuracy, but the group was good as it could be firing off-hand in howling wind. There was no, I repeat no vertical stringing!


I am going to load up five-round batches at tenth-grain intervals up to 4.9 grains, 5.0 being never exceed according to QL pressure calculations. If I can get a load that is easy on the brass that will run at 2100 or + FPS, I will be satisfied for this bullet/powder combo. Bullseye is very economical and usually in stock in my area, plus - I use it for every pistol caliber I shoot from .32 auto through .45 auto.


I will try and post some pics of the brass later when I get them hosted, but I am excited about this and can't wait to develop these loads further!

[sharky47]

Ok, I loaded up five rounds of :

4.0g

4.1g

4.2g

4.3g

4.4g

4.5g

4.6g

Of bullseye, would have gone up to 4.9, but I ran out of bullets - need to pick up a bunch more next time I'm at Basspro....

Anyway, I should be able to get to shoot these in the next few days with the chrono and a paper target to get some hard data and grouping on the various charges.

[gw45acp]

You'll notice the soot around the neck regardless of powder. It likely has to do with insufficient case expansion to seal the chamber and prevent that from flowing back. I'm looking forward to seeing the rest of your test results.

[cvande]

I'm looking forward to them also. I can get similar results from about 7gr of HS-7 but they don't make it anymore and I'm almost out.....

[sharky47]

You can rest assured I will post whatever data I get!

On the HS-7, I would have loved to try it out - but as everyone knows, it's discontinued and I personally have never seen it for sale around here.

Anyone know why it was killed?


But yeah, I can't wait to flesh this powder out completely - it'll be nice to have another economical propellant for this cartridge. It's funny, I load ALOT of .223 for my AR-15 needs (even CNC lathe-turn my own bullets), and this "exotic" 5.7 FN cartridge is one of the most inexpensive ones in my inventory to load!

[Grantness]

I'm looking forward to them also. I can get similar results from about 7gr of HS-7 but they don't make it anymore and I'm almost out.....

He's quoting results out of a 16" AR57 barrel, not the FsN. So far I would not consider Bulleseye a good replacement for HS-7.

[sharky47]

^^^^^

Yup, please bear in mind that this info is based on me testing it in the AR57!

Although, according to QL (results may vary of course), out of a 4.5" barrel - 4.0g of Bullseye and 5.5g of True Blue damn near identical pressure/pressure curves and velocity! It may just work......

I do not have a FiveseveN.........yet........

[sharky47]

Ok, have another load to test:

3.2g of Bullseye

55g military pull-down trace projos

Federal SRP

This *should* yield:

33956 PSI

1676 FPS

343 ft lbs

And a nice pressure curve free of spikes.

To test this load, I will have to wait until we get some rain or drizzle - I don't want to be the jackass that sets the whole county on fire.....

Going to do some stuff around the house, then I will try to get some pics hosted/posted.

[sharky47]

Ok, here are some pictures:

These are from my 4.0g Bullseye load under a Hornady 40 V-max, the ones with the nickel primers are my handloads, the one with the brass colored primer is a factory SS197.

http://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/61 ... directlink" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

http://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/7V ... directlink" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

http://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/Kw ... directlink" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

EDIT - if a mod would like to allow me to directly upload pics, I will be more than happy to painfully detail this powder development for all to see. I will be more than happy to respect any size/format limitations.

[f3rr37]

Sorry sharky, we don't have direct uploads setup here to keep the load down on our server. The best thing to use is something like photobucket or imageshack, both are free. Or if you can find a way to use an absolute URL for the picasa images that should work.

[sharky47]

No prob, I'll try to figure out the proper links.

[Pete D]

"I am REALLY interested if I can come up with a subsonic load based on the SS109 bullet......."

Quite the opposite end of the spectrum of powders that you have been discussing but....
subsonic loads with heavy bullets...
Some years ago, on another forum (CSP) this question came up. I experimented with IMR 4064 and 45/55 grain bullets. I have load and chrono data (it's been a while and those notes have been put away; I'll look for them if you are interested. This was done before there were any factory data sheets available, back when the old 5-7 website was running). As I recall, the case was loaded to the neck with 4064 and the bullet seated, not a compressed load. Function was flawless from the FiveSeven pistol. IIRC, velocities were well under 1000 fps.
There is another thread in this forum - on page two - which deals with subsonics.
I posted data there for a lighter bullet and 4064:
"9.4 grains of 4064, essentially a caseful - right to the neck - was loaded with a 45 grain bullet and a CCI-400 primer.
The five shot string was 920,931,956,971,882. There were no malfunctions. Accuracy at 25 yards was acceptable - no keyholing."
That was in 2006.
The 55 data is still in the book.
Pete

[sharky47]

^^^^^

Thanks for sharing! I don't really have retail access to IMR powders in my area though

We did get a load that cycles the action and stabilizes the bullets at least out to 20 yards in my buddy's 6" AR57 based on the SS109 and Clays powder. Need to develop that load further, but that's for a separate thread......

[I8asquirrel]

Sorry If th is is a FNG ? but why does so much of the 5.7x28 data call for a Flat base bullet? why does it make any diff.

[gw45acp]

The SS197 uses a Hornady V-Max 40 Grain boat tail bullet. Western Powders claimed that since this is a very pressure sensitive round, the use of boat tail bullets takes up additional case volume when compared to flat base bullets and could potentially increase pressure to unsafe levels.

The SS197 is proof that it isn't unsafe to use bullets other than flat base types. You just have to use the proper and safe powder charge weight.

[fatherfoof]

GW, as always you make a great case for your point. Can't argue with what works!

[I8asquirrel]

Thanks GW45acp there is so much conflicting info out in the reloading world, Hard to sort out the BS. I have purchased 1k brass and have my dies on the way. I plan to load for both an AR57 and FN 57. both weopons shoot great I just cant afford to feed them on factory ammo. I plan on using Barnes varmint grenade bullets in the Ar57 for pest control and the FN57 just becuase its fun. The problem I am running up against is the lack of DATA resorces out there. :wall: :wall:

[sharky47]

"The problem I am running up against is the lack of DATA resorces out there."

It's kind of a blessing and a curse - it's fun being in on the exploration of a new cartridge! Either way, we are constantly filling in the blanks......


I have an appointment tomorrow (Wed afternoon) to go try out these loads, data to follow.

[gw45acp]

GW, as always you make a great case for your point. Can't argue with what works!

Thanks FF. I should add here that Johan Loubser with Ramshot noted that the boat tail bullets can be used with a 15% reduction in powder charge. His contention is that boat tail bullets are not needed for handgun loads due to the generally shorter target distances when compared to rifles. Also, it has been mentioned on the forum that Western Powders has updated their 5.7x28 data to include the 40-grain V-Max. Below is the text of the email containing his response:

Gavin,

We recommended that because the 5.7x28FN is an extremely sensitive and unforgiving caliber.

Since the boat tail bullets are longer they reduce the initial combustion volume drastically, which makes the caliber even more sensitive.

Since one shoots short distances with a handgun, the use of a boat tail bullet is really not necessary.

If you use the P90 PDW weapon system with the 10” barrel at longer ranges, you can certainly use the boat tail bullets, but you will have to reduce the current loads for equivalent weight (flat-base) by between 15%.



Regards

Johan Loubser

Ballistician

Ramshot/Accurate Powders

Tel: (406) 234 04 22 email: [email protected]

Western Powders Inc -- Miles City – Montana.

I8asquirrel - You should be able to safely use 40-grain bullet data to load the Barnes 36 gr. VGs. If you are using True Blue powder, You could start out with 5.2 to 5.5 grains with a COL of 1.575 - 1.580. I don't have any experience with the AR57, but the 16" PS90 doesn't like loads much hotter than 6.1 grains. With those I averaged about 2284 ft/sec. The 6.4 loads averaged 2421 ft/sec. I would consider 6.3 grains of True Blue (2355 ft/sec) as my max load since it isn't the gun, but the primer that is the limiting factor.

Sorry for the thread hi-jack. Just to get back on track, I'm looking forward to your Wednesday evening range report Sharky!

[sharky47]

Ok, good news and bad news:

Bad news - the sky was so overcast that my chrono would not get a single reading :wall:


Good news - 4.0 through 4.6 grains of Bullseye functioned flawlessly. All of the primers were still rounded, no cratering/piercing, no other signs of pressure. All fed/fired/extracted/ejected no problem - there is plenty of room to go up on the charge. I guess the next step is to load 4.6-5.0 and try to get some velocity numbers.



I did also load five rounds of 3.5g of Bullseye under a 55g milsurp tracer. I had previously tried these in my AR as .223 rounds using H322 (I know 335 is preferred, but did not have any), and only a few lit. As you can see in the video - all five lit, and lit strongly and promptly. I am going to load the remaining tracer bullets in my inventory (~200) into 5.7 and skip the .223 trace all together.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xJWiRcnahrY" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[Grantness]

gw: I think the guys at Ramshot are being a little too touchy about the change in case volume associated w/ boat tail bullets. 5.7x28 is not THAT incredibly sensitive and dangerous. So long as an appropriately suitable powder has been selected, it shouldnt make much difference. If you loaded the max loads that Ramshot themselves lists and switched out a same weight BT bullet for the FB, the difference (in terms of velocity, I dont know about accuracy) would be hardly perceptible at all.

[sharky47]

Fixed the youtube link in the very last post on page #1.

[rickys2]

great vid :thumb:

[sharky47]

Thanks!

Also wanted to mention, these were tracers of unknown age/quality - outside temp was 50 degrees.


Yup, that means that I was able to get a 100% (small test batch, I know) of military tracers to light in temps less than 60 degrees out of a rifle barrel.

[gw45acp]

gw: I think the guys at Ramshot are being a little too touchy about the change in case volume associated w/ boat tail bullets. 5.7x28 is not THAT incredibly sensitive and dangerous. So long as an appropriately suitable powder has been selected, it shouldnt make much difference. If you loaded the max loads that Ramshot themselves lists and switched out a same weight BT bullet for the FB, the difference (in terms of velocity, I dont know about accuracy) would be hardly perceptible at all.

+1. I think they are concerned about product liability and were a little over zealous on this issue.

[gw45acp]

Sharky - Thanks for posting the video. Sorry to hear about the chrono problems. I think I spend more time swearing at my chrono than I do using it.

Hope you get a chance to try it again soon.

[sharky47]

Next sunny day that I can get out to the range. Either that, or I will break down and buy the LED kit for the chrono so that it will work in any lighting condition. We do a lot of testing at night, the LED kit would actually be a decent investment......

[sharky47]

Ok, got some more data to share!

These tests were performed mixed brass, Federal SR primers, Alliant Bullseye powder, Chrony Alpha chrono, and an AR57 with a 16" barrel. Oh yeah, bullets were 40 Nosler ballistic tip boat tailed.

Outside air temp was about 65 degrees.

4.6 grains

2102
2133
2101
2073
2074


4.7 grains

2115
2047
2083
2167
2132


4.8 grains

err
err
2186
2124
2032


4.9 grains

2208
2147
2115
2127
2201


5.0 grains

2213
2213
2204
2222
2200


Factory SS197

2122 one round just for comparison.

All brass/primers looked good. Primer corners still had a radius and absolutely NO cratering/piercing at all. At retail prices, the 5 grain load costs me $0.25 each - price will reduce when components are bought in bulk.

[rickys2]

More Data:

FiveSeveN pistol outside temp at 70'
COL: 1.135
OAL: 1.580
NOSLER 40gr BT
Bullseye 4.5 gr
Avg FPS 2110

55 gr FMJBT
COL:1.135
OAL: 1.585
Bullseye Powder
3.2 gr 1280 FPS
3.3 gr 1308 FPS
3.4 gr 1321 FPS
3.5 gr 1347 FPS

[sharky47]

Outstanding! Thanks for posting!

[MikeS]

This is a great thread, I have about 7lbs of BE. I use it in a lot of handgun loads. Come Spring I'll try some in 5.7 for my ps90.

[karbuv]

:clap: Great, thank you for your work and sharing! Are there any signs of pressure or problems starting to show up, primers, smoke, ejecting odd, et al? :thumb:

[sharky47]

I am using the following loads with my AR15 16" bbl:

55 grain M-196 tracer - 3.5 grains

No pressure signs, cycles flawlessly, lights 90+% of the time even in cold weather.



40 grain Sierra and Nosler ballistic tip - 5.0 grains

No pressure signs, cycles flawlessly, perfectly good accuracy.

[karbuv]

:clap: Great! It looks like Bullseye works in the USG pistol and rifle when used in moderation. Sounds like a nearly ideal plinking and everyday hunting round. Guess we learn something more about this cartridge all the time. There must be other powders we have overlooked. Hum.. :ponder:

I am using the following loads with my AR15 16" bbl:

55 grain M-196 tracer - 3.5 grains

No pressure signs, cycles flawlessly, lights 90+% of the time even in cold weather.



40 grain Sierra and Nosler ballistic tip - 5.0 grains

No pressure signs, cycles flawlessly, perfectly good accuracy.

[sharky47]

Yup, and with the 40grain ballistic tip and 5 grains of BE - I am getting a full 100FPS faster than SS197.........at literally a fraction of the cost!

[ericaikens]

Would you say 5.0g of bullseye would be good for a 36g varmint grenade??